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Latest revision as of 01:21, 18 October 2024

This page falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style articles This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Wikipedia’s approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia’s policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

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MOS:TVAUDIENCE says “Do not include user ratings submitted to websites such as the Internet Movie Database, Metacritic, or Rotten Tomatoes (including its “Audience Says” feature), as they are vulnerable to vote stacking and demographic skew.” MOS:FILMAUDIENCE says approximately the same. I didn’t actually find anything called “Audience Says” on Rotten Tomatoes. Is that referring to what Rotten Tomatoes now calls its “Popcornmeter”, or is that referring to something else, such as individual comments submitted by members of the public? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here: “Audience Says” is a short blurb that summarizes what fans think of a movie, drawing on common points made in user reviews written for the title Gonnym (talk) 20:20, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but are they still using that feature? That links to a blog entry from more than 3 years ago, and I don’t see such blurbs for the well-known movies I checked on the site. Is it acceptable to use averaged audience scores such as the Rotten Tomatoes “Popcornmeter” or the Metacritic “User Score”? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copying my comment from your talk page. Generally, I don’t like to include the user-generated scores from anywhere – IMDB, Metacritic, RottenTomatoes in part because they are largely fed by either fans or haters of shows and are easily manipulated. If the only source for a user generated rating is IMDB/Metacritic/RT, I would 100% leave it out. If a secondary sources calls out the score and highlights something unusual about it, that’s worth a second glance to see if it should be included with the full context – show XYZ was review-bombed and the user rating on DEF went from 9.5 to 2.3 in a month. That’s notable and worth mentioning. Ravensfire (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think having this discussion is good just to get some definition here and use that to update the MOS. Ravensfire (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the “Audience Says” aspect of RT has been retired, then I see no issues with removing that parenthetical. Really, I try to avoid the use of parentheticals in general. I’m assuming that was originally added to the guideline because there were issues with editors adding that specifically. DonIago (talk) 12:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was presumably useful information at the time it was added. What would be useful now is to clarify whether the Rotten Tomatoes “Popcornmeter” and the Metacritic “User Score” are acceptable. I suggest they are not, and that the MOS should be clarified to say this. In fact I just discovered someone already added a mention of the Popcornmeter. I expanded it to also mention the Metacritic “User Score”. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that you are refreshing the documentation and adding clarification[1] that you feel is necessary but it seems redundant to me. I would suggest instead (or in addition) to point up to the higher level guidelines and principles of WP:UGC or WP:RS because audience scores are fundamentally unreliable and that is why they not allowed. — 109.79.167.27 (talk) 21:14, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for those links. In my opinion, the statement at WP:UGC was not very clear about reported averages. I just added a clarification there. Which specific sentence(s) at WP:RS would apply to this type of polling result? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted on your Talk page the point is not about any specific mechanism for expressing user scores, the point is that such user voted or crowdsourced information is not the Wikipedia kind of reliable and should not be used. I didn’t decide the consensus I’ve just seen these same discussions before. I’m not claiming the documentation is well written or clear enough.

It might be helpful to note that as with every rule in Wikipedia there are always exceptions. Occasionally reliable WP:SECONDARY sources (e.g. Variety magazine) point out there has been a big discrepancy between audiences and critics then occasionally editors will use that source to mention that there has been a divergence of opinion, but even then it isn’t about the score (or average rating) specifically but it is about the audience response in general. e.g. The_Acolyte_(TV_series)#Audience_response — 109.79.167.27 (talk) 21:52, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have started a discussion about potentially changing the approach to determining the cast lists for this series at Talk:The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power#Approach to the cast lists. It does not follow the standard Main/Guest/Co-star crediting style so needs a different approach from MOS:TVCAST, and the release of the second season has raised questions about whether the current approach is adequate. Any regular television editors who have thoughts on the best way to determine cast lists for the series are welcome to contribute them at the discussion. Thanks all, adamstom97 (talk) 13:27, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like this sort of overhaul rewrite happens frequently when a show hits season 2 and things need to be reorganised by long term editors more familiar with the project TV guidelines. Maybe wait until the season is finished and the article settles down and no one is likely to mind? The fact that you asked at all somehow suggests you think it might be contentious but you’ve started a discussion already so if the change already seems uncontroversial then there would seem to be no need to wait. — 109.76.194.168 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:08, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for other opinions because it is an unusual situation that doesn’t follow the standard process established at MOS:TVCAST. – adamstom97 (talk) 07:50, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Featured lists § FLs for television seasons. A discussion regarding whether season articles should go through the GA/FAC or FLC process. TheDoctorWho (talk) 21:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television § Released: Airing vs streaming. Editors are still needed to weigh in on this. This is affects the {{Series overview}} and {{Episode table}}. — YoungForever^(talk) 13:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all,

Recently was comparing MOS:FILMPLOT and the TV MOS guidance on plot sections and noticed that, while the movie MOS provides guidance on whether or not to include actors’ names in the plot summary, this article does not. I don’t mind either way, but was just look for some clarity.

Thanks so much! Have a great day!

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | 🙂 | 19:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:TVPLOT does include this guidance. (“Also avoid information that belongs in other sections, such as actors’ names.“) It is much less visible than the same sentiment in MOS:FILMPLOT though, and TVPLOT might benefit from emulating FILMPLOT’s placement and wording. Dan Bloch (talk) 00:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, I see.

I made the sentence more prominent, but not sure if it should stay exactly like I have it – change it if you feel it could be improved.

Thanks! Have a good day!

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | 🙂 | 01:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The [[New York City blackout of 1977]] struck on July 13 of that year and lasted for 25 hours, during which black and Hispanic neighborhoods fell prey to destruction and looting. Over 3,000 people were arrested, and the city’s already crowded prisons were so overburdened that some suggested reopening the recently condemned [[Manhattan Detention Complex]].<ref>James Goodman, ”Blackout” (2003)</ref>

The [[New York City blackout of 1977]] struck on July 13 of that year and lasted for 25 hours, during which black and Hispanic neighborhoods fell prey to destruction and looting. Over 3,000 people were arrested, and the city’s already crowded prisons were so overburdened that some suggested reopening the recently condemned [[Manhattan Detention Complex]].<ref>James Goodman, ”Blackout” (2003)</ref>

The financial crisis, high crime rates, and damage from the blackouts led to a widespread belief that New York City was in irreversible decline and beyond redemption. By the end of the 1970s, nearly a million people had left, a population loss that would not be recouped for another twenty years. To Jonathan Mahler, the chronicler of ”[[Ladies and Gentlemen, the Bronx Is Burning|The Bronx is Burning]]”, “The clinical term for it, ”fiscal crisis,” didn’t approach the raw reality. ”Spiritual crisis” was more like it.”<ref>Jonathan Mahler, ”The Bronx is Burning: 1977, Baseball, Politics, and the Battle for the Soul of a City” (2006) {{ISBN?}} {{page?|date=July 2024}}</ref>

The financial crisis, high crime rates, and damage from the blackouts led to a widespread belief that New York City was in irreversible decline and beyond redemption. By the end of the 1970s, nearly a million people had left, a population loss that would not be recouped for another twenty years. To Jonathan Mahler, the chronicler of ”[[Ladies and Gentlemen, the Bronx Is Burning|The Bronx is Burning]]”, “The clinical term for it, ”fiscal crisis,” didn’t approach the raw reality. ”Spiritual crisis” was more like it.”<ref>Jonathan Mahler, ”The Bronx is Burning: 1977, Baseball, Politics, and the Battle for the Soul of a City” (2006) {{ISBN?}} {{page?|date=July 2024}}</ref>

== See also ==

== See also ==

Immediately after World War II, New York City became known as one of the world’s greatest cities.^[1] However, after peaking in population in 1950, the city began to feel the effects of suburbanization brought about by new housing communities such as Levittown, a downturn in industry and commerce as businesses left for places where it was cheaper and easier to operate, an increase in crime, and an upturn in its welfare burden, all of which reached a nadir in the city’s fiscal crisis of the 1970s, when it barely avoided defaulting on its obligations and declaring bankruptcy.

As many great cities lay in ruins after World War II, New York City assumed a new global prominence. It became the home of the United Nations headquarters, built 1947–1952; inherited the role from Paris as center of the art world with abstract expressionism; and became a rival to London in the international finance and art markets. Yet the population declined after 1950, with increasing suburbanization in the New York metropolitan area as pioneered in Levittown, New York.

Midtown Manhattan, fueled by postwar prosperity, was experiencing an unprecedented building boom that changed its very appearance. Glass-and-steel office towers in the new International Style began to replace the ziggurat-style towers (built in wedding-cake style) of the prewar era. Also rapidly changing was the eastern edge of the East Village close to FDR Drive. Many traditional apartment blocks were cleared and replaced with large-scale public housing projects. In Lower Manhattan, urban renewal began to take shape around 1960, led by David Rockefeller’s construction of the One Chase Manhattan Plaza building.

In a built-out city, construction entails destruction. After the old Beaux Arts Pennsylvania Station was torn down, growing concern for preservation led to the 1965 Landmarks Preservation Commission Law. The city’s other great train station, Grand Central, was also threatened with demolition but was eventually saved. Meanwhile, New York City’s network of highways spread, destroying neighborhoods where African Americans lived under the guidance of the noted urban planner with exceeding biases against certain ethnicities Robert Moses, consequently increasing traffic congestion, traffic pollution, and ruining livelihoods of the people who once lived in vibrant neighborhoods.^[2] However, the defeat in 1962 of Moses’ planned Lower Manhattan Expressway by community activists led by Jane Jacobs was an indication that Moses would no longer have the free hand in the destruction of livelihoods he had enjoyed in the past.

During the 1960s, a gradual economic and social decay set in. A symptom of the city’s waning competitiveness was the loss of both its longtime resident National League baseball teams to booming California; the Dodgers and the Giants both moved after the 1957 season. A sports void was partially filled with the formation of the Mets in 1962, who played their first two seasons at the Polo Grounds, the former home of the Giants, before moving to Shea Stadium in Queens in 1964.

The passage of the federal Immigration Act of 1965, which abolished national-origin quotas, set the stage for increased immigration from Asia, which became the basis for New York’s modern Asian American community.

On November 9, 1965, New York endured a widespread power blackout along with much of eastern North America. (The city’s ordeal became the subject of the 1968 film, Where Were You When the Lights Went Out?) The postwar population shift to the suburbs resulted in the decline of textile manufacturing and other traditional industries in New York, most of which also operated in extremely outdated facilities. With the arrival of container shipping, that industry shifted to New Jersey where there was more room for it. Blue-collar neighborhoods began to deteriorate and become centers of drugs and crime. Strip clubs and other adult businesses started filling Times Square in the late 1960s.

In 1966, the US Navy decommissioned the Brooklyn Navy Yard, ending a command going back to the early 19th century. It was sold to the city. The Yard continued as a site for shipbuilding for another eleven years.

From November 23 to 26, 1966, New York City was covered by a major smog episode, filling the city’s air with damaging levels of several toxic pollutants. The smog was caused by a combination of factors, including the use of coal-burning power plants, the heavy traffic on the city’s roads, and the widespread use of wood-burning stoves and fireplaces. It was the third major smog in New York City, following events of similar scale in 1953 and 1963.

John Lindsay, a liberal Republican, was a highly visible and charismatic mayor from 1966 to 1973. The city was a national center of protest movements regarding civil rights for black citizens, opposition to the Vietnam War, and the newly emerging feminist and gay movements. There were jolting economic shocks as the postwar prosperity came to an end with many factories and entire industries shutting down. There was a population transition with hundreds of thousands of African-Americans and Puerto Ricans moving in, and an exodus of European-Americans to the suburbs. Labor unions, especially in teaching, transit, sanitation and construction, fractured over major strikes and internal racial tensions.^[3]

The Transport Workers Union of America (TWU) led by Mike Quill shut down the city with a complete halt of subway and bus service on mayor John Lindsay’s first day of office. As New Yorkers endured the transit strike, Lindsay remarked, “I still think it’s a fun city,” and walked four miles (6 km) from his hotel room to City Hall in a gesture to show it.^[4] Dick Schaap, then a columnist for the New York Herald Tribune, coined and popularized the sarcastic term in an article titled Fun City.^[4][5] In the article, Schaap sardonically pointed out that it was not.^[4][5]

The transit strike was the first of many labor struggles. In 1968 the teachers’ union (the United Federation of Teachers, or the UFT) went on strike over the firings of several teachers in a school in Ocean Hill and Brownsville.^[6]

That same year, 1968, also saw a nine-day sanitation strike.^[7][8] Quality of life in New York reached a nadir during this strike, as mounds of garbage caught fire, and strong winds whirled the filth through the streets.^[9] With the schools shut down, the police engaged in a slowdown, firefighters threatening job actions, the city awash in garbage, and racial and religious tensions breaking to the surface, Lindsay later called the last six months of 1968 “the worst of my public life.”^[10]

The Stonewall riots were a series of spontaneous, violent demonstrations against a police raid that took place in the early morning hours of June 28, 1969, at the Stonewall Inn, in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of New York City. They are frequently cited as the first instance in American history when people in the homosexual community fought back against a government-sponsored system that persecuted sexual minorities, and they have become the defining event that marked the start of the gay rights movement in the United States and around the world.

By 1970, the city gained notoriety for high rates of crime and other social disorders. A popular song by Cashman & West in the autumn of 1972, “American City Suite”, chronicled, in allegorical fashion, the decline in the city’s quality of life. The city’s subway system was regarded as unsafe due to crime and suffered frequent mechanical breakdowns. Prostitutes and pimps frequented Times Square, while Central Park became feared as the site of muggings and rapes. Homeless persons and drug dealers occupied boarded-up and abandoned buildings. The New York City Police Department was subject to investigation for widespread corruption, most famously in the 1971 testimony of whistle-blowing police officer Frank Serpico.^[11] In June 1975 after the city announced budget cuts downsizing the police force, officers distributed a pamphlet titled “Fear City” to arriving visitors, warning them to stay away.^[12]

The opening of the mammoth World Trade Center complex in 1972, however, was one of the few high points of the city’s history at that time. Conceived by David Rockefeller and built by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey on the site of the Radio Row electronics district in Lower Manhattan, the Twin Towers displaced the Empire State Building in Midtown as the world’s tallest building; it was displaced in turn by Chicago’s Sears Tower in 1973.

US economic stagnation in the 1970s hit New York City particularly hard, amplified by a large movement of middle-class residents to the suburbs, which drained the city of tax revenue.^[13] In February 1975, New York City entered a serious fiscal crisis. Under mayor Abraham Beame, the city had run out of money to pay for normal operating expenses, was unable to borrow more, and faced the prospect of defaulting on its obligations and declaring bankruptcy. The city admitted an operating deficit of at least $600 million, contributing to a total city debt of more than $11 billion^[14] and the city was unable to borrow money from the credit markets.^[15] There were numerous reasons for the crisis, including overly optimistic forecasts of revenues, underfunding of pensions, use of capital allocations and reserves for operating costs, and poor budgetary and accounting practices. Another perspective given on this matter is that as the most capitalised city of the United States at that time, New York hosted an array of welfare and benefits for its people, including nineteen public hospitals, mass transit facilities and most importantly, New York City provided higher education for free with the municipal university system.^[16] The city government was reluctant to confront municipal labor unions; an announced “hiring freeze” was followed by an increase in city payrolls of 13,000 people in one quarter, and an announced layoff of eight thousand workers resulted in only 436 employees leaving the city government.^[17]

The first solution proposed was the Municipal Assistance Corporation, which tried to pool the city’s money and refinance its heavy debts. It was established on June 10, 1975, with Felix Rohatyn as chairman, and a board of nine prominent citizens, eight of whom were bankers. In the meanwhile, the crisis continued to worsen, with the admitted city deficit reaching $750 million; municipal bonds could be sold only at a significant loss to the underwriters.^[17]

The MAC insisted that the city make major reforms, including a wage freeze, a major layoff, a subway fare hike, and charging tuition at the City University of New York. The New York State Legislature supported the MAC by passing a law converting the city sales tax and stock transfer tax into state taxes, which when collected were then used as security for the MAC bonds. The State of New York also passed a state law that created an Emergency Financial Control Board to monitor the city’s finances, required the city to balance its budget within three years, and required the city to follow accepted accounting practices. But even with all of these measures, the value of the MAC bonds dropped in price, and the city struggled to find the money to pay its employees and stay in operation. The MAC sold off $10 billion in bonds.^[18]

It failed to achieve results quickly and the state came up with a much more drastic solution: the Emergency Financial Control Board (EFCB). It was a state agency, and city officials had only two votes on the seven-member board. The EFCB took full control of the city’s budget. It made drastic cuts in municipal services and spending, cut city employment, froze salaries and raised bus and subway fares. The level of welfare spending was cut. Some hospitals were closed as were some branch libraries and fire stations. The labor unions helped out, by allocating much of their pension funds to the purchase of city bonds—putting the pensions at risk if bankruptcy took place.

A statement by Mayor Beame was drafted and ready to be released on October 17, 1975, if the teachers’ union did not invest $150 million from its pension funds in city securities. “I have been advised by the comptroller that the City of New York has insufficient cash on hand to meet debt obligations due today,” the statement said. “This constitutes the default that we have struggled to avoid.”^[19] The Beame statement was never distributed because Albert Shanker, the teachers’ union president, finally furnished $150 million from the union’s pension fund to buy Municipal Assistance Corporation bonds. Two weeks later, President Gerald R. Ford angered New Yorkers by refusing to grant the city a bailout.^[20]

Ford later signed the New York City Seasonal Financing Act of 1975,^[21] a congressional bill that extended $2.3 billion worth of federal loans to the city for three years. In return, Congress ordered the city to increase charges for city services, to cancel a wage increase for city employees and to drastically reduce the number of people in its workforce.

Rohatyn and the MAC directors persuaded the banks to defer the maturity of the bonds they held and to accept less interest. They also persuaded the city and state employee pension funds to buy MAC bonds to pay off the city’s debts. The city government cut the number of its employees by 40,000, deferred the wage increases already agreed to in contracts and kept them below the level of inflation.^{[22][23][24][25]} The loans were repaid with interest.^[26][27]

A fiscal conservative, Democrat Ed Koch, was elected as mayor in 1977. By 1977–78, New York City had eliminated its short-term debt. By 1985, the City no longer needed the support of the Municipal Assistance Corporation, and it voted itself out of existence.^[17]

The New York City blackout of 1977 struck on July 13 of that year and lasted for 25 hours, during which black and Hispanic neighborhoods fell prey to destruction and looting. Over 3,000 people were arrested, and the city’s already crowded prisons were so overburdened that some suggested reopening the recently condemned Manhattan Detention Complex.^[28]

The financial crisis, high crime rates, and damage from the blackouts led to a widespread belief that New York City was in irreversible decline and beyond redemption. By the end of the 1970s, nearly a million people had left, a population loss that would not be recouped for another twenty years. To Jonathan Mahler, the chronicler of The Bronx is Burning, “The clinical term for it, fiscal crisis, didn’t approach the raw reality. Spiritual crisis was more like it.”^[29]